146723-wildstar-not-for-this-average-player-page-10
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8, Page 9, Page 10, Page 11 Content ---- I think that's a great idea, PhillyMike, but many in the raiding community strongly oppose the idea of more challenging and rewarding non-raid content because it would muddy up the linear progression funneling people into the raid content. So unfortunately, no, we can't all co-exist and have rewarding and meaningful progression. I'd like to have that. You'd like to have that. But many people on these forums are on record that they emphatically oppose it. Edited December 20, 2015 by yasfan | |} ---- "Many in the raiding community oppose this" =/= "raiders are evil". Respectfully, I would appreciate it if you would try to focus a little better on representing my position honestly and fairly. Because I am in fact doing exactly that to avoid making some equally witty--but ultimately unfair and unkind--overgeneralizations about you. | |} ---- ---- Whether they've opposed additional content in those categories in this thread is irrelevant. They have staunchly opposed what was being asked for, which was an expansion of the progression range for those types of content that is more challenging and more rewarding. Repeatedly and insistently. And your wording omits those key elements. Edit: to remind you, that's why my response was not "More of those would be great" but this, highlights in red to draw your attention to what is in fact opposed. Edited December 20, 2015 by yasfan | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Nice to see you doing exactly what I said many in the raiding community in fact do. Oppose more challenging and more rewarding non-raid content because of the linear progression. I guess they do it right here in this thread after all. Yeah, OK. I'm out. Enjoy the deathspiral of your favorite game, guys. You've worked really hard to get it, so congratulations. You've earned it. | |} ---- I'm not following your reaction to my statement at all. | |} ---- I've said repeatedly I am 100% on-board with more challenging and rewarding shiphands/adventures/dungeons. Just because I disagree with you on what those rewards should be (do you REALLY want to see the current vet dungeon content go the way of the dinosaur??) does not mean I don't want that content. Don't twist my words to fit your agenda. Edited December 20, 2015 by Naunet | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Literally 2 lines later you contradict yourself. Come on man. | |} ---- Hey, I do think everyone SHOULD play this game how they want to, I really agree. What I would like is to have you STOP complaining that a game that was intended to be hardcore is too hard! It's like you ordered a steak and you're complaining it's not fish! I'm not saying all your points are invalid, in fact, may are correct. But to say that this game isn't the way you want it it's because it is not intended to be the way you want it. I personally think you'd be much much happier playing something else. I don't care if we play together or not, in all honesty. For your happiness, please, play a more casual mmo instead of complaining about this one. | |} ---- The honest truth is, if people had to pay 30-40$ a month, they wouldn't. Games make money by suckering casuals into paying inflated prices for stuff that has no impact in gameplay. That's the business model. People join games hoping to raid, most don't and instead pay for stuff they don't need. Not just wildstar, afaik, every game out there. No one actually pays for content, they pay to look cute and ride pretty horses. | |} ---- Couldn't agree more Jeff | |} ---- No - let me clarify Wild star has like, let's say, 10 things to do. Feel free to choose any of those ten things, and be happy. That's great! If you want to spend hours and hours and pages and pages of forum posts complaining that 10 things is not enough and i really want things 11 and 12 - i am very very very sick of hearing it. Not all MMOs can offer all content to all players. I am playing wildstar SPECIFICALLY because other MMOs do not have raiding at the level i want to play. I am, honestly, quite happy with the way the game is. I am sad when people leave because it is "too hard." I never thought of it that way, but again, wiping to a boss for a few hours while learning a fight doesn't bother me in the slightest. If it wasn't hard, there would be no fricking point to it. I think when people give up easy and don't try something that's potentially awesome - that's a tragedy within itself and it makes me very sad. I'd love to run dungeons with those guys and teach them how to play. What is happening in this thread is NOT that. We are honestly so far away from the OP that we should get a different title for it. What this is, is like "wildstar offers GREAT housing, GREAT raiding, AWESOME dungeons." But those things it did great are too easy for people to learn in the span of 15 minutes, because apparently for anything to have any learning curve at all is way too hard. In stead we should be able to get 90% of the rewards for 10% of the effort. Play what you want man, but if you go to a great steakhouse and then complain they don't have penang curry, that's not on the steakhouse for not making curry, that's on you for choosing the steakhouse. | |} ---- I can see how you would think that but read into it a bit more. Goes back to the "you can't make everyone happy" argument. Playing the actual game is different from how you WANT it to play. Well chem beat me to it, man I need to get on the ball. | |} ---- Unless most of the patrons were looking for a tender "medium rare" steak that wasn't difficult to cut or chew, but still had a nice enough cook through to require a bit of effort. Yet what they received was a well-done char broiled brick of death aimed at consuming their entire soul at the dinner table I hate analogies, can we just call a spade a spade from now on? Edited December 21, 2015 by Vahlen I | |} ---- Ya know, you keep referring to the steak as the *hardcore* nature of this game, so I will give you an analogy of my own. It appears the packed restaurant patrons (Wildstar) have mostly all returned that *steak* and gone down the street for a *fish fry*. Time to cut the design losses after 2 attempts. Steam will be the smallest and last chance at establishing a sustainable player base, and those players are probably going to be about as casual as PC gaming comes. Edited December 21, 2015 by Vahlen I | |} ---- Which reflects even more poorly on the steakhouse ;) | |} ---- ---- Kinda hard to screw up steak, unless you like jerky ;) | |} ---- ---- ---- If that's the case, it's on the Devs to fix it, not us. We all know there is a population problem and I know the game could shut down at any point. Did you know that Leauge of Legends has like... 26% of the game share? Likewise, most popular "restaurant" is McDonalds. That doesn't make McDonalds good. But hey, if your steak house is struggling, that doesn't mean turn it into McDonalds, it probably means "do some effective marketing" | |} ---- Please for the love of all that is holy, let this be true!!!!! | |} ---- Actually Orestes, i tend to agree with this | |} ---- I am well aware that you, as an individual, do not view raiding as free license to call strangers names because they don't raid. That was not a reference to you specifically. As far as my view of Raids being 20-man Dungeons, well, it's true. Raids are only called "Raids" because of the number of people involved but the basic principle is exactly the same as a 5-man dungeon. Delegation of roles and responsibilities on the team in instanced content with mechanics unique to that location. Whether the Raid is "easy" or "hard" or "simple" or "complex" is entirely dependent on the approach taken by the Development Team that put it together. That is not commentary about the difficulty of Dungeons, I actually rather enjoy the Dungeons in Wildstar and have pugged them every chance I could... in spite of the fact that now that I'm sporting a bunch of Raid gear they have become a bit of a faceroll <_< There is nothing about Raiding that is inherently different from Dungeons other than the number of players required to participate - nothing. Raids can and do come in all shapes and sizes with a wide variety approaches to things like accessibility in every MMO and it is all entirely dependent on the philosphy of the design teams. This is why it baffles me, constantly, that people want to act like Raiding is something "special" or "different", like it has to be a "unique" feature solely because of the number of people involved. And it is particularly frustrating when people think that Raiding gives them license to act like they are somehow special. You have seen them, you know full well that this small subset of a small subset of the population does the most harm in every MMO, and over what? Because they prefer to do things in games that require a better understanding of the mechanics and a bit more coordination? Good for them, so what! I do it too, you don't see me calling non-Raiders names because they want a version of the content that makes them happy. It does not now, nor does it ever, justify treating people like crap. That doesn't just cause problems for them, that causes problems for you too, and me, and everyone else. It's especially obnoxious when people try to equate anything in a video game with the term "work". "Work" is what people do to get paid and put food on their table. Last I checked Raiding doesn't pay anybody - it is purely about individual preference and having fun... meaning that if people prefer to run LFR then that is their prerogative because it is a Video Game - A Toy - something people do for fun and entertainment. Who are these social rejects of the internet to call people names because other people would prefer a dumbed down version of Raiding to keep them happy? Yes, there has been lots of evidence. In particular when someone from Carbine came right out and said during an interview that "they never intended for Wildstar to not be casual friendly"... Which actually leads me to my next point. Why in the hell do so many people, up to and including the game developers themselves, buy into this bullshit fallacy of the "Casual vs. Hardcore" False Dichotomy? You want to talk about bad design decisions outside of Housing, here's what happened that led to a F2P transition: Carbine went through all this effort to create all this great content for the end game and then they shot themselves in the foot by arbitrarily relegating each type of content to a specific item level bracket... What?? Why?? So now, here's what you've got - Craploads of really great content where 75% of that content is almost completely irrelevant to any given person at any given point in time both in terms of it's applicable challenge level and the rewards for doing it. I'm sporting Raid gear, how much enjoyment does Carbine think I will get out of Expeditions (SHIPHANDS DAMNIT!)? How much enjoyment am I supposed to get out of Adventures? Hell, even the Dungeons and World Bosses are a faceroll now that I've outgeared them. I only Raid one night a week because that's what I have time for, so when I log in between Raid nights I ask myself the same question that everyone else does: "What do I want to do tonight?" And, sadly the answers to that question are always limited to either a) content that I no longer find challenging, B) Housing (which I absolutely love, btw, but I've hit a bit of "writer's block" with my most recent project), or c) to go play something else... ^ And that's not just me, how often do we hear about this thing called "Raid-Logging"? How long is it supposed to take before people lose interest entirely and decide it's not worth the effort to log in at all anymore, let alone feel that they are enjoying the content enough to want to support it by buying that Uber-Leet Sparkle Pony off the cash shop? I don't think I really need to state in plain english just how exactly that affected the P2P model and the quarterly numbers :huh: And that's just at the upper end of the item level bracket, what about the lower end? Same thing, just in reverse! There exists a crapload of people, in fact I would say overwhelming majority, who for whatever reason don't play MMOs for things like Raiding and Gear Progression, it's almost like they play it solely for the enjoyment of logging in and talking to people and they're just looking for something random to occupy their time with. It's almost like they don't even have a specific agenda! OMG, so weird, who would play an MMO like this??? Well, we saw what happened with them quarterly numbers prior to the F2P transition. As it turns out, people weren't content to run the same content over and over again with any sort of variation in their nightly routine, no matter what their skill level and interests are... because, again, 75% of the endgame content is practically irrelevant to any given person at any given point in time. Go figure, it affects everyone of every playstyle and skill level. I would honestly love to see ilvl 90+ versions of Shiphands, Adventures, and Dungeons. Just because I've been Raiding, it doesn't mean that I don't want to be challenged or engaged by anything else in the game on non-raid nights. On the flip side of that, I've made a lot of friends in the Housing aspect of the game (I secretly call them the "IKEA Overlords!" :D ) who would most likely appreciate the opportunity to fund their Housing addiction with something that isn't Dailies and Shiphands. Having ilvl 55-65 versions of Adventures and Dungeons would go a long way to broaden their nightly gameplay options and help to avoid stagnation for them. Having an LFR in this game would go even further by broadening the potential for content that is also relevant to them. As I have said since this game released last year: "This is an MMO, people do not play solely for the opportunity to 'see' the content once and then never do it again. They will play this game habitually, on a nightly basis, for several hours at a time and every person that Carbine hopes will support this game is going to ask the same question every single time they log in - 'What do I want to do tonight?' IF the answers to that question are the same 2 or 3 things every single night for every single person then the majority of people will lose interest and the game will no longer be an equitable expenditure for them either in terms of time or money." I think it's safe to say, having looked at the pre-f2p quarterly numbers, I am not wrong. So, I wouldn't say that the non-Raid content outside of Housing "fell flat", per se (except Adventures). The content is great and people love it, it's just that Carbine went through great lengths to create it and then made disposable with this odd decision to relegate everything to a specific ilevel bracket as opposed to including multiple ilevel brackets (or "difficulty levels" if people prefer to call it that) for each type of content and letting the players decide from day to day how they would prefer to spend their time and at what levels of involvement they want to do that at. Edited December 21, 2015 by Srfrogg23 | |} ---- Again - I actually think there are a lot of reasonable ideas here. As for dungeons, i dn't think their needs to be a "hardmode" Instead what we like to do is try for gold in all of them - which is really fun! (you should try it). The lower level content is really awesome, but too easy (agreed here). We could modify it as i suggested in an earlier post, or even dual levels would be awesome as well. As for housing, whatever disagreements we've had in this thread, come to my house and check it out :3 I also need builders for projects i have so let me know if you have time. | |} ---- All end game content needs some form of scaling. Dungeons/Pvp/Raids. Raids have it, Pvp kind of has it, Dungeons have nothing. Then again some "people" cant even do dungeons so giving more levels of difficulty to them would be done by those who do them now. Leaving the others to come on here and complain that it isn't "Progression" for them. :ph34r: Edited December 21, 2015 by Ufalicious | |} ---- Larger numbers means that you can create encounters that require a higher degree of coordination, and the feel is very different. Sure, raids can be like dungeons with lots of players, but in WS (especially in Datascape) it's not always the case. Compare System Daemons to Mordachai. Both are very challenging encounters. What is the level of individual mechanics in both? Well, the challenge of individual mechanics on System Daemons is quite small. Almost all of the jobs require you do do one or two things well. Control group? position mobs and stun them. Kicker? Kick power surge and drop stacks. Tank? Move the daemons to the proper pillars. And yes, everyone has to deal with purge properly. But let's face it, that's nothing compared to what you have to do on Mordachai, where it's easy to make one mistake and you are dead. Jumping over lasers and dodging pools is much harder than any of the individual mechanics on SD. What about coordination? Mordachai has almost no coordination whatsoever. If two people can survive long enough, they basically can kill the thing without anybody else. But SD, well, it's a whole other ball of wax. The coordination of all the moving parts is very complex and challenging. Dungeons simply cannot over the coordination complexity that a fight with 20 people can. Now largely this isn't a thing in GA. But in DS, it's more and more the style of the fights, | |} ---- You're wasting your breath. I said the exact same shit as you and the casual brigade hopped all over me. Some people just want immediate gratification with no time investment. Guess what? If something in life is worth having, then its worth working for. | |} ---- Lot's of people do "work" in their past times. When I'm writing a piece of music, I tell people I'm "working on a new song". People who play sports "work on their game". And yeah, it *is* work. Music work that I do because I find it enjoyable. Raiding is the same kind of "work"- not something you do to get paid, but something you put effort into because you like the process. | |} ---- Dungeons used to have progression. I'm not sure why they flattened them out. Probably because of the "random dungeon" thing. But yes, I think there should be some kind of dungeon progression. | |} ---- "*cupcake* it, who's spreading purge!" "Damn it kickers, do your job." "Add room needs to get on the ball" "Moar dots on 2nd pillar phase" "Final phase, avoid red" Thought jeff might get a laugh out of that. I see that you also went 1/9. Belated Congrats :P | |} ---- ---- The comprehension level of the general masses is no concern of mine. | |} ---- LOL- yes! And thanks :) We've also downed Limbo, but thus far I'm not counting it because it's bugged :( We're having fun with minis and Lettuce, but running into holiday schedules so will be a bit before we can get back to working on Lettuce. | |} ---- dont forget "coming down with purge, everyone watch out" | |} ---- Ahaha- funny because it's true. | |} ---- ---- Any post that goes on for 44+ pages and doesn't actually have a point is "not defined." This is just one long whiny rant where everyone wants the game to be what they want and nobody else. | |} ---- ---- Alot have said it. People want new stuff or new type of playstyle. To change wildstar. Why? I rather them expand on the awesomeness, don't make new stuff. Meaning make whats good greater. Raid finder, instanced world bosses, harder expeditions giving adventure>dungeon blues, lvl 50 dungeons that give adventure level gear, better adventures or being able to "push" adventures to go faster w/ better loot. Raid Finder> Don't change difficulty but make it so you can queue for wings. Such as GA: 1st floor (A), left side of 2nd floor ( B), right side of 2nd floor ©, convergence (D), 4 minis w/ ohmna (E). Have to do A first prior to anything else. Than can't do D/E until B and C are done. Can't do E until D is done. And resets every week. A > B, C > D > E. DS: 3 mini's/SD (A), Earth Wing/gloomclaw ( B), Limbo/Ice Wing/maelstrom ©, Lettuce/Fire Wing (D) Pairs (E), Avatus (F). A > B, C, D > E > F. Maybe once completed them all, can queue for whatever. But if everyone is on step E, than you know they have done a,b,c,d. Also, for those raiders on off nights can practice on these bosses. Probably make rewards not as significant as being in a raid with people. Meaning won't drop tier tokens, can only obtain them in raids but will drop 116/120 gear. Also won't drop class runes or even majors. Something so raiders have incentive to go into raids and form up as a guild vs not just free for all of raid finder. Maybe even have it so it's one tier below what the current raid is. Or can't queue until x amount of guilds have killed the boss to unlock for others. But I forsee people complaining about difficulty. Wildstar is great imo, just needs to expand on what is great for casuals because apparently vet dungeons and expeditions aren't good enough for them? I would understand if fully geared out for those, but next step is raiding. If raiding isn't for them, than why bother? I don't do much in housing, and housing is an endgame, so I'm not going to ask them to change housing. I would love to have premade stuff or being able to move my plot or adding more fabkit plots or having multiple farming plots. If I want to put a garden over every part of my plot, why shouldn't I? Why not have being able to buy a "portal" to every location in the game and being able to place anywhere on my land instead of making a fabkit to do it. Why not being able to purchase every item if I "unlocked" it by doing achievements or getting the time once. (Don't get me started on PVP, but fixes are in the works) Edited December 21, 2015 by Orrestes | |} ---- Its the old casual/hardcore argument with a new flavor called"Average" lol -Only 10 plat buy when its cheap | |} ---- | |} ---- it cuts both ways. Hard to have a serious discussion about any of this when terms like "instant gratification" and "general masses" are thrown about, it just sounds like elitist self-aggrandising, In the minds of much of the raiding community there seems to be just two possibilities: 1) Hardcore Raiding Mode 2) Instant Gratification Mode And nothing in between. Yet this middle ground is where the majority of "average" PC gamers actually inhabit. They don't want things dumbed down to the level of mobile games or stupid demeaning mini games, nor to be told to go play with the ever-increasing fluff being thrown into the game in order to prop up the "real" gamers (i.e. the raiders). Many just want the fun and exciting content to be scaled where possible and made a bit more accessible, perhaps by breaking things into more manageable chunks and/or difficulty modes. You know, like many other MMOs have already managed with their raid content - Story Modes, Heroic Modes, Challenge Modes, Raid Wings, call it what you will. None of this prevents the existing raids remaining just as difficult, challenging and time consuming as they already are. In their full form they represent the pinnacle and should always have the best rewards. But it beats me why raiders in this game have their noses so out of joint by the prospect of opening things up to a wider audience, unless of course it's that special snowflake factor, the bragging rights and all that. In which case ...... get over yourselves or you won't have a game to brag about being so fantastic in ;) | |} ---- ---- You people just aren't willing to put the time into the game to be successful at raiding. I have literally seen new people brought into my guild, in dungeon gear, and clearing DS in 2 months time. This person put forth the time and effort to be as good as they could in that short amount of time. The average player is the player 1/9 ds or 6/6 ga. The casual players are the ones pugging ga and complaining about rune costs and shit. The actual dedicated and experienced players are the ones clearing elemental pairs, downing avatus, and doing Hardmentors. If you are satisfied with being mundane then thats your problem. There are other parts of the game that cater to people with less time/experience/skill. DS is a simple as pie btw when you actually get some experience with it. | |} ---- Raiders that have cleared DS who have been playing since launch* | |} ---- Case proven. You've actually no idea what kind of gamer I am. But if helps you pigeonhole people for me to wear the hat of mudanity and be in awe of your raiding prowess, I'll wear it with pride. | |} ---- I have no problem seeing it (raiding) opened up, but not dumbed down. Besides the select few who voiced their opinions here, I have to say that most raiders here do not have their noses bent out of shape. For the longest while our guild had to resort to merging guilds or picking up other DS raiders who maybe were not content with their situation before we eventually called raiding due to schedules and burn out for most. More often than not most did not have the time commitment for raiding, that's fine. But another problem is the fear of stepping in DS, granted I didn't see it a lot but it still happened and we eventually changed their mindset. My point is that there's also a psychological aspect to this or seems to be and is something we need to address. When people hear of guilds disbanding over SD (which in some cases did happen) it leads to the situation I describe. No I don't have facts or links to back this up, was just a personal anecdotal observation of mine. I mean I used to raid DS (5/9) but due to real life stuff I just did not have the time to raid consistently, do I want to get back in there and get gear? Sure, but I am not going to rush to go raiding since I have lost some interest in WS at the moment, mostly due to the pvp bots and just the whole rune situation right now (I am fully runed on my main however). I just don't know whatever happened with being content with where you were. Me personally, and I think I developed this as a kid playing mmo's (UO > SWG (pre-nge) > WoW (pre-cata) is that if I did not have the time to do the content, I did not expect to get the gear nor did I complain at not having it. However I was usually in awe of those who did. I realize the carrot on a stick is needed for non-raiders in this day and age but I found there was plenty to do outside of raiding and still getting gear. Things also changed as the majority of our stats went from gear to runes, essentially opening up gearing to the masses (regardless of their cost), even if they did *cupcake* all over the current raiders at the time of its introduction. Guess I am just a different breed than the majority. Edited December 21, 2015 by Bacon_21 | |} ---- Oh look, another "special snowflake". I'm happy to hear that your level of responsibilities in life allow such dedication to game, but putting others down because they have more requirements on their time than you is childish and ignorant at best. It should be pretty telling that over a year after release your definition of the "average" player has only cleared 1/9 DS.............that's not accessibility kiddo. Especially when you take a look at what the industry standard is for MMO content lifespans. DS is past it's time, there should/needs to be a new update, but how is that justifiable when the "average" player hasn't even seen more than a couple fights? | |} ---- It's not about comprehension. It's about not being an *cupcake*. Say things politely and folk are more inclined to listen to you (even if they don't agree). | |} ---- The average player is a below average raider. | |} ---- ---- I find it funny that people keep bringing up raiding from other games when Wildstar raids are some of the best out there on the market. It comes down to being able to what, queue up for them? WoW, you can only break up what "wing" you do for LFR, not for any of the other difficulties so that's out. Final Fantasy does turns so they break out their raid, but I've heard they are not hard at all until you get to Savage. It's not all about opening them up. It's about developing one raid. Resources devoted from Carbine to developing for that one raid. Not having multiple difficulties to balance and have to put resources towards this. On top of that, having to have multiple difficulties is dumbing down the raids. Creating a worse player instead of players stepping up and getting better. DS is broken up into wings already. You go kill SD, you now have a choice of 3 wings to go to. People already have difficult time in vet dungeons for whatever reason, think raiding would be easier? Dude, you are so hostile on all your posts. You really don't understand what Wildstar raiding is from all your posts. You think Raiding is the only thing to do at 50, when it's the top and last thing to do. There is so much more to do. Shoryken has said what alot of raiders think, put in your time and get the content down. Don't expect things to be handed to you after a couple hours of wiping on a boss. It's not being a special snowflake, if anything it's you wanting to be a special snowflake because you can't do raids. You just seem to be bitter towards all raiders. I've mentioned a raid finder to add, but I really don't see SD being downed in a raid finder. I really don't see players wiping 200+ times on SD in a raid finder or spending all night doing it. Than they have to do it again the next night, because new people or someone thinking they can do SD right after downing ohmna in dungeon gear queues up. Thats what you will see in a raid finder. Unless they do a iLvl requirement say 100 which Carbine does not want to do, and they shouldn't because someone may have all 100, but that one drop they couldnt get gives them a iLvl 86 dungeon piece. GA is able to do that, I don't know about SD yet, unless it's been by people that have downed SD. | |} ---- ---- I meet hostility in kind. Raid finder and separate boss lockouts is a start..............but my point still stands. DS as a raid is absolutely ancient in terms of typical MMO content lifespans, so the fact that I'd wager a majority of players haven't seen past a couple bosses is pretty sad since that is what end-game in WS is based around. Please don't start about adventures and expeditions......it's been widely lamented about how useless those are right now. That leaves what? Dungeons which can be rendered pointless by crafting and housing? I'm not going to change your perception, that much is clear...........but come on, DO YOU really like that making a few subtle changes to a failed design/marketing philosophy is going to work? | |} ---- It's a shame on several levels. A shame for the players who would like to experience it but can't as currently configured, but don't want to be carried. It's a shame for guilds who would like to have some raiding options for less experienced and/or benched members. And a shame for the devs - all that hard work and countless hours spent building the raid content and then it only reaches the eyes of a small subset of the game's population. So let's say they make an easier version of each raid. Let's call it 'Loppmode' with lower gear requirements and slightly more relaxed / forgiving mechanics and perhaps some flexibility on numbers and time required. If the Hardmode version is left as currently, how does this dumb anything down? The players likely to enjoy 'Loppmode' aren't, for the most part, likely to be players who wish to step up to Hardmode. Some might and they'll likely be valuable team members for Hardmode because they'll have learned the fights and will know what they need to hone / improve. But for many Loppmode is likely to be good enough for them. This could be achieved either with or without a LFR system. Mediocre? Mundane? Quite frankly, who cares if the players are happy and logging in to enjoy the content. And if there's still shinies that can only be obtained in Hardmode, then those that need shiny baubles as badges of honour can still have them. I know the argument is that balancing an easier version takes away development time from the Hardmode raids. But, if the game shuts down because it didn't widen it's appeal, who's raiding Hardmode anyway? The "best raids in any MMO" will be in the great digital Recycle Bin in the sky. | |} ---- What is this critical thinking and problem solving nonsense..............MY SNOWFLAKE WANTS HIS TROPHY! 10/10 would Loppmode again. Edited December 22, 2015 by Vahlen I | |} ---- Meh, reduction of difficulty and forgiving takes away what makes Wildstar raids great. But that's just me. If you really think making an easier raid or how many are raiding is the make/break of why this game doesn't have a million subscribers and is dying, well, just smh. And Vahlen, not always about gear for content, it helps, but not the make/break. | |} ---- No, it's just part of the problem. Alone it's certainly no panacea. Personally I'd prefer to see the focus of dev effort put into improving the UI, fixing existing bugs, properly optimising the game, squishing the lag and streamlining / improving existing content before they think about adding more content or features. I'd hazard a guess It's issues like these and not the lack of easier raid content which ultimately holds this game back from reaching its potential. But that's not what this thread is discussing. | |} ---- I mean. Basically yes. How does this effect your in game experience negatively exactly? I mean, you can still do your super elite hardcore stuff right? In fact, it might even be better for you cause then you can just /inspect people and then if they are in easy mode gear you can make fun of them a lot so you can feel better about yourself. Win win! | |} ---- You think making LFR is going to save this game? Or just blinded because #lazy cant do it right now. How about creating new content that actually might bring new players. | |} ---- When did I say LFR was going to save this game? This game is past saving, you know it, I know it, the American people know it. | |} ---- I could resort to ad hominems like you, but that would just be stooping to your level. I find it interesting you keep resorting to personal attacks, as I could give 2 shits about how far I get into raiding. I already had that neckbeard phase of my life and I outgrew it..........you clearly have not. I'm sorry if success in Wildstar is all you personally have, so I can understand why you cling to flawed logic so vehemently.......... On it's own? No. As a part of a larger accessibility revamp? Yes, just as it has with every other MMO on the market that utilizes one. ...............btw, shave the neckbeard.....it's almost 2016 bro. Edited December 22, 2015 by Vahlen I | |} ---- Useless, but still content, so what's the problem? Same for Dungeons. This goes back to my point of being content with what you have at the content level you are at. Seems as this goes on it's becoming a thread about gear. The problem with introducing a reduced difficulty (which I have no problem with) raid goes back to my point on stagnation. I witnessed it in swtor as well, they had multiple difficulties along with an LFR tool (Normal > Heroic >Nightmare). However you could only LFR the normal versions iirc. I get it, people with busier than normal (subjective) lives or not-so-stable gaming time like to get in and get out fast. If you were in that group Normal was for you, I venture to guess you can figure out the rest for the other difficulties. Ultimately it lead to a situation where plenty of people were raiding on the normal scene but they never ventured into the others. This is turn leads to guilds having to poach people from other guilds or the like. A lot of guilds (and especially the one I was in) were willing to take newbies under our wing and teach them TO JUST FILL OUT THE ROSTER. Factor in peoples real life schedules and the list of people only shortens. And this was with doing the 8-man version of raiding. I would imagine the same is true in WoW's case, however I have not raided seriously since pre-cata days, so I would have no idea if the same holds true for their LFR. I may sound ironic, but please see what I am trying to say. I am just trying to point out a somewhat big flaw in the system that (anecdotally) I and others witnessed. Edited December 22, 2015 by Bacon_21 | |} ---- I cant like his posts fast enough. What he says is the reality and some people just dont want to hear it. | |} ----